By far the largest content group within dpreview is our discussion forums, with around 24 million posts over a period of almost 10 years from around 320,000 posters (dpreview forum stats). One thing I've noticed in the past year is that everyone (admin & forumite alike) has a different take on the forum's nature and likewise everyone struggles to articulate their mental model of it. This will be an issue for the dev team when forum development resumes, because everyone has a feature request (or five) at the ready but no shared vocabulary or model exists to help concisely explain issues or solutions. My goal then is to produce (over a series of blog posts) such a 'forum model' to facilitate productive discussion, analysis and visualisation.

The knee bone's connected to the ... ?
So what exactly am I looking for? At the very least a comprehensive (interlinked) glossary of dpreview forum-related concepts. Even better would be a suite of diagrams really capturing the low-level actions (posting, replying etc.) and higher-level phenomena (cliques, debates etc.). Geek heaven would be a set of techniques to measure, describe & visualize user activity (individual and aggregate) and overall 'forum health' (based on metrics yet to be defined). So roll up the sleeves, it's time to talk social network theory.

The who and the what
Before we tackle the juicy stuff (factions, reputation, mood) we need to cover the basics. First, let's look at the various players and some of the simple (observable) behaviours actions they can perform within the system:

  • anonymous
    • view list of forums
    • view list of threads within forum by date updated
    • read posts / threads
  • members
    • all of the above
    • start thread
    • post reply to thread/post
    • quote user
    • edit own post (within allowed time frame)
    • reference images in their post(s)
    • link to any URL in their post(s)
    • view list of threads they've participated in recently
    • complain about any post (including their own)
  • admins
    • all of the above
    • all user actions
    • delete post (and all follow-up posts)
    • delete thread
    • lock thread
    • move thread
    • issue forum-specific ban to user (temporary or permanent)
    • issue all-forums ban to user (temporary or permanent)
    • view complaint list
  • bots/spiders
  • advertisers
  • developers

Constraints
So now we know who's playing this game, so what about the rules? Our forum rules come in two flavours: 'hard' rules, imposed by the unyielding machine, and 'soft' rules whose enforcement depends largely on whether the moderator (a dpreview writer procrastinating mid-review) lost their last foosball game.

  • Hard rules
    • 3 posts in 15 minutes per user
    • Posts can be edited up to 15 minutes after initial posting
    • Maximum of 150 messages per thread
    • Message length limited to 8kb in length
    • Messages will be blocked if they contain censored words or coupons
    • Messages will be blocked if they contain blacklisted URLs
    • Html tags are be removed from submitted posts (plain text only)
  • Soft Rules
    • No schilling or classifieds: It detracts from the conversation.
    • No coupons: It puts us & advertisers in a precarious legal position
    • Relevant images only: Technique-related only. Happy-snaps go in samples & galleries.
    • No cross-posting: No posting identical message to multiple forums, it leads to problems
    • No multi-posting: Repeatedly posting the same message frustrates others.
    • Nothing risqué: What is tasteful to some may be pornographic to others
    • No inappropriate child images: Illegal, wrong.
    • No voyeur images: We don't want our community to go in that direction
    • Be civil: (most infringed rule) Insults beget insults, nobody wins.
    • No Off-Topic: It distracts. We move it if can, otherwise it has to go.
    • No bashing: Broken-record, unsupported criticism of brands/individuals wears thin.
    • No bumping: Pushing your pet thread to the top distracts from bona fide popular threads
    • No off-board harassment either: Just because it happens off-board doesn't make it OK
    • No piracy: It's illegal. Enough said

Individual behaviour, group behaviour and user archetypes
Ok, so we've covered the main players and most of the rules they're (theoretically) playing by. Now to the meat of the issue: behaviour. Many existing features and most feature requests (including ports of other forum's features) represent attempts to shape, curb or encourage various individual and group behaviours. Here's a list of a few such behaviours (desirable and undesirable) off the top of my head:

  • Conversation: the obvious one. But can conversations exist above and/or below the level of threads (probably)
  • Cliques: People who interact with each other to the degree that they can be considered a group. What is the participation threshold which implies clique membership? Can cliques overlap or do they merge?
  • Fan-boys: What degree of content analysis is required to detect this behaviour programmatically?
  • Bumping: I'm pretty sure we could detect this programmatically
  • 'hit-and-run' posting
  • Cross-posting
  • Flaming
  • 'Me too' posting
  • Bashing
  • Ad nauseam debates

Here's where you come in
The lists above are incomplete, I'm sure of it. There's a huge community of dpreview forum members and readers with a deep understanding of our forums (and other forums) so I'm trying to tap into that here. If you can think of any other individual behaviour patterns, group  patterns, user archetypes, metrics or resources on the subject I'd love to hear from you (no 'I was banned', 'jimbo99 calls me names' type comments please).

Aside: What do I mean by 'visualization' anyway?

The expression 'visualizing the forums' may sound like a buzz-phrase, but it refers to a growing field of research around producing graphical representations of complex structures using statistical analysis and computer generated imagery. Feel free to suggest visualisations we could derive from the dpreview forums dataset. Below are a few social networking visualization examples (courtesy visualcomplexity.com).

Social Circles Twitter Social Network Analysis The structure of adolescent romantic and sexual networks Flickr Graph PieSpy
Backchannel Data visualisation of a social network Mapping the Digg Community Email Map Mapping WoW Arena Teams

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What the forums need is a way for users to evaluate the posts. "Thumbs-up/Thumbs-down" is a great way for this. Then allow users to set a threshold score for a filter. ie., only posts above 0, or -5, for example, get viewed. Anything below the user's threshold are filtered from view. That would cut a lot of the crap out, I think.

This method of "self-regulation" is used in many popular websites, such as YouTube, SlashDot, and more.

Here's a few other types of roles / posts I can think of immediately:

User archetypes:
- "expert": has deep knowledge of the system (e.g. AF design, lens types, compatibility etc)

(my hunch is that this type of role is hard to detect with specific keywords; perhaps it can be ascertained based on post history and follow-ups to specific posts (e.g. high occurence of "thanks" types of posts following his/her posts)

- "insider": has industry contacts and can more or less accurately comment on speculation/wishes/rumors

(not sure how to measure this)

- "rumorist": self-explanatory? this role can be both passive (a la "anyone heard of any new rumors regarding X?") or active ("I"ve hear this and this from a contact/shop/supplier etc")

(relatively easy to detect with various keywords?)

- "system cross-over": poster is considering to change systems, and asks for advice in "home" forum and/or target system forum

(typical words that I would imagine here would be various combinations "swith*" and mention of 2 (or more) brand names)

- a variation of the system cross-over would be a new user who is deciding between 2 systems or models

In terms of group patterns, I think it could also be interesting to use software-based content analysis to analyze the "moods" of forum groups (i.e. finer grained variations of "Dpreview always favors X", "System Y users tend to behave this way", "Brand Z is known for having high noise/slow AF/etc").

Come to think of it, this type of analysis would probably also of interest marketing-wise, as a way for brands to get a better understanding of how (a subset of) users perceive their brand.

Since I'm thinking of using social network analysis for my PhD research, I'm really interested to see how this project develops.

Just wondering - why are child images illegal and wrong? I have seen some really beautiful images of children on the forums, as they certainly are a rewarding subject for any aspiring photographer-dad (-mum).

@Rob
Comment evaluation is definately on our radar, the issue with such system is: what does 'thumbs down' actually mean? An offensive comment? A factually incorrect comment? An unhelpful comment? A comment whose content you disagree with? The idea is interesting, intuitive and (as you mentioned) popular, but I worry that it isn't nuanced enough for our requirements.

@Thehacker
I've now changed the wording to indicate that it's specifically inappropriate imagery of children (or imagery which may be perceived to be inappropriate) which is forbidden (as you would expect).

If you could implement a "kill file" ability into the forum I think "forum health" would go up greatly. Whether or not user "X" is a troll, fanboy, etc., if I deem them to be, I can be blessed to never again see a thread they start and thus its much easier to resist replying.
If that could be extended to hiding thread branches from the point the 'plonked' user interjected that would be even better.
Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk

Each forum probably has a select few posters that receive a lot more "air time" than the regular posters, not because they write more posts, but because readers make it a point to read messages from that particular poster.

For me, one of the ways of selecting which messages to read (apart from subject) is the name of the poster, someone who I know is usually entertaining/informative as opposed to someone who is usually dull/wrong.

Two questions:
What to call these more popular posters?
How to identify them?

For the first question, I suggest "opinion leaders" or some such sociological term.

For the second question, two solutions present themselves. One would be to create a ranking of "most read posters" - not the total number of posts read, but an average readership per post. The second solution would be to create a ranking of "most accessed profiles". What we really want to track here is those posters whose messages are read systematically through their profile history (is this possible?) - because this is the easiest way to systematically read an individual posters` messages without having to comb the forums.

Am I making sense?

Just wondering who picked "150" as a thread limit. It seems to me that once a thread reaches, say 50, it has gone so far from its original topic that it really needs a new thread

I love the forums exactly as is except for one thing. I would like to see them centered in the page. That way when I view a member photograph it is in the center of my widescreen monitor, even when the browser window is in maximized mode.
Right now as I write this post, I am looking at the very left side of my monitor.
Other than that, they are a perfect implementation. Clean, simple, intelligent.

Don't do a thing, identifying Experts novices and the like is patronizing and who cares, thumbs up thumbs down is just daft, If you agree or disagree then articulate it. In fact the implimentation of forums on this site is very good, particularly the navigation and look is very clean, it is better for the lack of the usual Avatars and paraphernalia,

I don't mind the "me to" type posts and no text (NT) comments, although i do think your thread limit could be higher to accommodate. In general I find the standard of posting here is quite good, and there is little that I would call Harassment or unpleasant. Internet forums all to often become dominated by a vocal bullying minority.

My personal pet hate the word "Moron" which is often used as light admonishment but taken, as a nasty insult.

My view, Forums, it ain't broke. don't fix it

Hey, a post about website producing – handy, seeing as I’m a website producer.

Anonymous –
Might be heavy on the servers, but should anon users be allowed to search posts?

Also, should anonymous users be allowed to file a complaint? If I were a non-dpreview user, but found that someone had, say, posted one of my images, I’d be quite sore if I had to sign up as a user before I make a complaint.

I’m not sure if this should be a members or an admin role story, but would it be worth allowing some more in-depth statistics? Most popular forum, most prolific poster, current hot topics, that sort of thing?

Cheerio,

- H

One way to overcome the limitations of a "thumbs up/down" rating system is by integrating quality into the picture:

A forum member reads a post and decides the author is very informative, reasonable, and helpful. The member chooses to record his or her satisfaction by clicking thumbs up...and then checking off the reasons why this post or this author is worth the positive mark. Clicking thumbs down would offer members a way to record why they think the post or the author deserves the negative mark.

All of this would be optional, of course. But it dramatically improves the standard and very misleading "yes/no" or "happy/sad" or "good/bad" rating systems by giving some weight to the reasons why.

I was a moderator on an anime forum for a few years and I think it could provide the basis for a whole new series of inter-community connections. How many rumors has User #1208 posted that eventually proved true? How many equipment reviews has User #832 written that were judged misleading?

Those who dislike the ratings system would be able to turn it off in their profile settings and never see them.

I really think a way to control / restrict / just disallow quoting would be a huge improvement on the forums. Reading bad posts wouldn't be so bad if I didn't have to skip past a page of quoted material to read that one irrelevant line.

This web site has a lot of users, hence the number of threads is huge. It's very complicated to find a relevant topic.

Several suggestions:
1. The ability to group threads into subforums/categories on multiple levels => a hirearchy. For example the Nikon D90 - D40 / Chalenges, Pictures & CC, Lenses, Q&A, A VS B, etc.

At this moment all threads are mixed (for example if you are not interested in picture CCs you get tons of such threads).

2. Forums and sections should have moderators. There are a lot of people who are very present on the forum and they will probably be very happy to get involved.

What they should do is enforce a minimal set of rules, such as: use search, and post in the right forum without becoming dictators (this happens in other "tight" communities).

Just an example: if every lens discussed would have it's own discussion thread, it would be very easy to find relevant info and express yourself in the right place.

3. Sticky threads feature. A lot of questions are asked repeatedly quite a lot.

4. Do not give too much power to moderators. This forum is fun because people are not banned for beeing ironic, agressive, etc.

5. I think a real forum solution is needed (there are a lot of open source solutions available in any technology flavor). This approach would save a lot of development time and a lot of the current issues. The current forum lacks a lot of features.

6. Advanced Search features

7. "Alert me" feature (email when someone replies). Sometimes I'm very interested in a particular thread but I'm loosing that thread in a matter of hours or days if I'm not adding it to favorites (which I don't want)

8. A lot of nice to have features that any dedicated forum solution has: content formating (wysiwyg, smileys, private messages, etc.)

9. Ability to change the profile (including the displayed name).

Bottom line... you have a huge active community and the forum si very outdated. With minimal development time this could be migrated to an existing solution which could be adapted to your needs (e.g. hooking the authentication mechanism, migrating the existing content, etc.).

My 2 cents.

I do not think it will be hard for dpreview to have official representatives from the various big boys such as Canon and Nikon guys to "lurk" around the forum. I believe they already do but have one that is officially and visible to answer more technical questions like glass/lens designs. It's a double edged sword of course and they may be forced to remain invisible at times to the aforementioned fan boys or posts that just brew flames but their contributions on the technologies that each respective company can produce will be immersively sought-ed.

The limitation that you have to provide an email-address that is not of an online service is very annoying.
I for one only use my online gmail account, but am unable to signup for the forums because of this.

1. I agree that up/down rating of posts is less constructive. I would prefer to see something like more useful / less useful. The point is to focus on posts which are helpful rather than those which present a viewpoint with which I agree.
2. I would also like to see more breakdown of forum topics. Specifically, I would like to see more separation of equipment discussions from general phototography issues (and more of the latter, e.g. potraits, landscape, nature, photojournalism, etc.).
3. Bravo on these new blogs.

...wow, a forum about the forum. Sure generate highly-intelligent replies ;)

I think that you're forgetting the very most important two rules.

One is a posts/month rule, and the second is a chars/post rule. If brevity is the soul of wit, certainly the words "obsession" and "compulsion" should be separated, as well.

But the main problem is that you guys want as many people to spend as much time as possible posting on your forums, so that would be bad.

Figure out a way to eliminate or reduce the ability of trolls polluting the forum. They don't add anything to the discussions. The complaint button should be used heavily on these individuals and they should be "tracked" for a ban of the site.

Also, recording member's IP addresses could identify an administrator if this troll has multiples identities at DPR and could be dealt with appropriately.

Ability for a poster to delete or edit his own post WITHOUT the 15 minute limitations. Other forum sites allow this and should be implemented here too. Also the OP should be able to "request" the removal of an inappropriate reply, within his own post. That way he/she can keep the thread relevant to the subject.

Allow users to sort threads within existing forum structure.

why are users who use free email services (hotmail, yahoo etc) not allowed to be a member?

Someone mentioned a personal kill file would be a good idea and I don't disagree.

At least as useful to me would be a "watchlist" feature where I could add users and their posts and threads would then automatically be highlighted. Often, in the sea of threads in the forums, it is as difficult deciding what is worth reading as it is to decide what isn't.

"Figure out a way to eliminate or reduce the ability of trolls polluting the forum. They don't add anything to the discussions. The complaint button should be used heavily on these individuals and they should be "tracked" for a ban of the site."

...the problem with that is that the forums would rapidly become cliques.

They are that way already as the forum-monitors surely will lock-out anyone who tends to say what they don't want to hear, or posts in a style that they don't want to see. The last thing that you want is a group of 10 or 20 people who "vote people off the forums" whose posting-style doesn't conform to theirs.

I'm all for a block option or something personal but the forums have to be free or they will rapidly become stale.

on the note of "individual behavior" and what not, I think that the more that you restrict the forum, the harder it will be for the truth to come out, especially when it goes against the grain of "conventional wisdom". there are many ways to dumb-down a forum and that would convert it from a good source of information to little more than a table of cliques each policing the forum to ensure that their views are promoted to the exclusion of others. The capital crime is to penalize if not outright ban a poster for saying something that some established member doesn't like, that is when conformity outweighs intelligence, logic and accuracy. You have to allow for intellectual give and take or the forums will rapidly become stale and useless for anything other than providing a safe & cosy environment for certain people to hang out and post among themselves, repeating the same old tired drivel.

Now of course that might be good for the site hit-count so that has to be taken into consideration.

But I would always protect the truth, protect facts and protect good logic, first and foremost. Sometimes that comes in a package that isn't all that pleasant. But if you delete good information because it isn't well-presented then sooner or later the site will be all about presentation and not about useful, new and interesting content. So the use of a grain of salt is a good thing. Of course you don't want to have to get heavy on the salt either. Make a few clear-cut rules to handle the outliers and let forums go where they will.

One other thing I think that the idea of permanently banning people from the forums is just a bad thing. sure, "give them a rest", but a permanent ban should be the solution of last resort and only used in extreme cases. And not just for not following the preferred posting-style of the forum. This is a camera-forum not a diplomatic party.

One thing that needs to change is the restriction on linking to helpful URLs at other photography sites. I understand the desire to prevent spam and shilling — an excellent goal. But this is very frustrating when a URL at pentaxforums.com or wherever directly answers someone's question.

Blocking these URLs shoots down the illusion of community with a big bright sign: "This forum isn't *really* here to help people. It's here to make money for the owners of dpreview. Contribute to _us_ or nothing."

Think about Google: their core functionality is sending you away from their site, but everyone always comes back. Ironically, the lack of ability to link to other photography sites is one of the reasons I spend less time in the forums here than elsewhere.

I love the forums. Their simplicity and quick response to important postings is simply unequaled on the net.

Moderators would be fine to act as lightly treading humanized filters. However I must admit that it's always fun when Phil hops on a thread and zings his famous one liners to calm things down, lol.

One thing that bugs me a little though is (just a few) of the BIG or ugly signatures that some members use. It would be nice to have an option to kill sigs.

That said, some of the sig lines are pretty hilarious so I wouldn't wanna lose them 'cuz they crack me up.

Keep up the good work... like the blog idea. :)

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